Although it's possible to create an RPG without stats, or rather "attributes" as most RPGs call them (D&D being a notable exception in calling them "ability scores"), I think it would be more intuitive (as well as easier) if we included attributes in our system.

But what attributes should those be?

D&D offers the classic Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. GURPS offers only four: Strength, Dexterity, Health, and IQ. (I've always thought "IQ" was a terrible name for an RPG attribute, especially if it doesn't actually reflect a character's IQ, and moreso considering most home campaigns will take place in an era before something like MENSA would be introduced. It's just dumb.)

Of course those are simply the systems I know best. I've played (or looked at) a smattering of other systems but can't much remember them. Although I do remember the D6 system allowing you to make up whatever attributes you wanted; it was basically a lame "design your own RPG" RPG.

In one of my old systems I believe I used Strength, Dexterity, Stamina, Awareness, Intellect, Wisdom, Willpower, and Charisma.

In another system I narrowed it down to Strength, Dexterity, Stamina, Intellect, Will, Perception.

I think one for agility - type one for strength - type and one for speed -type would be good

Like Physical - Mental - Social (so kinda like WoD)

Or maybe drop social and add 'will power' as an over all type

Or maybe a Defense and an Attack stat of each kind? I don't know.

sometimes art of leverage with a moderately strong person can accomplish things that a strong person could do. like things in judo for instance.

or mastering a technique of smashing through a brick without using strength.

how could we accommodate strength type feats without relying on the stat strength. attack power isnt always Dependant on one's strength. I think the word strength for a stat just doesnt cover these other areas.

strength would count for how much you can carry/lift but as far as attacking goes a moderately strong guy attacks with a dagger and a strong guy attacking with a dagger would do probably the same in damage. i think strength should only give attack power modifiers to heavy weapons. or create a system where some weapons have a strength requirement to even use them. like an oversized Buster sword made of iron.

I think keeping it to a minimum is best.

What we really need to ask is: what will each attribute do for the game?

I think each attribute can work as its own "defense" as far as D&D terminology goes-- that is, instead of a Fortitude defense, you make an opposed check with your relevant attribute. Keeps things simple and makes a lot of sense.

I agree with lance that some kind of Strength score shouldn't just measure raw strength but an overall sort of "athletic" ability (other than what is represented by Dex and Con). Actually I believe this is the way Strength is used in other RPGs, it just isn't spelled out in those terms. But what to call such a stat, if not Strength? "Strength" is really such an iconic name for an attribute for RPGs, it's really hard to imagine changing its name.

Strength is definitely an attribute that should be in the game. It will measure a character's ability to lift, carry, and deal melee damage at least.

We also need some kind of score to represent a character's reflexes and nimble-ness, such as Dexterity or Agility. It seems pretty "core" and would represent a character's ability to dodge attacks when wearing lighter armor (or perhaps even in heavy armor though to a lesser extent).

Constitution or Stamina is another one to consider, though some games roll it up in the same stat as Strength. It can determine a character's overall health as well as Hit Points (or whatever equivalent we end up using).

We definitely need a score to rate Intelligence. However, what it will do beyond being helpful to a smattering of skills is still up in the air. Sure, there are spells and such that we can key off Intelligence, but that's sort of "forcing" it into usefulness-- I'd like to make sure every attribute is inherently useful to all characters, though in different ways.

I think we can do without Charisma, and roll it up with Wisdom into Will or something. That can measure a character's overall force of personality and will. The difference has always been vague between the two after 3rd edition, which tried to make Charisma useful. Let's face it. Charisma, as a core attribute, is useless by itself. If a player wants to have a strong force of personality we can offer social advantages for just that. I also think attractiveness should be handled this way. However I'm still not quite sure how even Will would contribute outside of forcing its usefulness in some arbitrary way.

for stat rolling somethings aren't usually taken into account.

For instance someone who is really strong would usually have a larger amount of muscle mass. which in turn would affect his speed and agility considering the character would be heavier, the fact that the character has more weight to throw around should make his attack power slightly higher depending on the weapon. however his speed and agility would be degraded.


Having a high intelligence probably meant the character did more studying than physical training. which means it would probably lower strength, dexerity and consitution slightly.

but in many RPGs ive seen the intelligence stat wasnt very useful in campaigns unless you play a magic user type class.

I think intelligence has been severely overlooked. For instance someone who is a mage for instance with a really high intelligence would probably know just by smarts how to pick a lock without having any special skill in lock picking. Or Knowing weaknesses in monster types. another thing intelligence should give bonuses in is critical striking. Knowing the most deadly places on the human body to strike with minimal effort.

there are alot of bonuses that could be applied to intelligence that are completely overlooked. i think that stat has always been the underdog of all the other stats.

I do agree that in many RPGs Intelligence (or its equivalent) becomes a dump stat for most characters who don't make some sort of primary use for it (for example, to cast spells).

This is why I think every attribute should provide something meaningful to the character, something that no other attribute can provide.

Maybe Intelligence should be the "skills king"? Not quite sure how this would play out, but maybe every skill gets a bonus equal to it's key attribute modifier plus the character's Intelligence modifier (so a skill that keys off Intelligence would get double the modifier).

That way all skills monkeys will pump Int as their primary stat, and any character who wants a bit of an extra "oomph" to their skills will take Int.

yea. seriously thats a good idea

The problem is, is with a random roll to generate stats all stats being important creates a situation where characters are crippled. If we do only pointbuy, there would be little need to bother as an even spread with slight leanings would add more (especially with the natural bell curve). Oddly, fixing INT that way, makes CHA and WIS less meaningful for classes the don't key to them, as a high INT means those skills are taken care of.

Wisdom and charisma weren't very useful attributes except for a social type situation. wisdom more so for mages but if you werent a magic user class you could be daft as a doorknob and still be a good fighter.

Charisma was good for gaining info out of people or rallying groups together. But a Wise speaker could generate the same effect as charismatic speaker could.

kind of like Democratic vs Republic

LOL just kidding....or am I?


Instead of Charisma why not rename the stat to Reputation?

you could be an ugly popular person. shit look at Nick Nolte

Wisdom i think would greatly affect trap detection and pathfinding.

A wise person does not easily get lost or fall into traps.

How should we approach this discussion? Come up with some attributes and see what we can make 'em do?

Str - bonus to melee attacks and damage.
Dex/Agility - bonus to dodging, ranged attacks and damage
Con/Stamina - bonus to HP
Int - bonus to skills?
Will - bonus to "ability points"?

Ability Points - like magic points but for martial, divine, and other sources of stunts.

This would make all of the attributes meaningful. I just wonder if some are inherently overpowered compared to others. I also wonder if this would result in characters with points spread about evenly or if we'd see huge discrepancies between scores.

Hmm my input is

Strength
+bonus*2 Damage Melee on Lg weapons
+bonus Damage Melee on Md Weapons
+bonus Striking Melee Lg weapons
+bonus Striking Melee Md Weapons
+bonus*2 Dodging med armor
+bonus Dodging Hv armor

Agility
+bonus Dodging reg armor
+bonus*2 Dodging Light armor
+bonus Striking med weap
+bonus*2 Striking sm weap
+bonus Damage med weap
+bonus*2 Damage sm weap
+bonus*2 Momentum Weapons
+bonus Stealth


Stamina
+bonus Damage soak Hv Armor
+bonus*2 Damage soak Med-light Armor
+bonus HP
+bonus Health Regen (n%)per rd
+bonus Magic Resist
+bonus Skill Pt


Intelligence
+Bonus Detect Magic
+Bonus Detect Trap/Ambush
+Bonus Charm
+Bonus Skill pts
+Bonus (MP regen? which ever system your using)
-Penalty Getting Laid - chics hate nerds.


Will
+Bonus Resist Magic
+Bonus Resist Poison
+Bonus Ability Points
+Bonus Resist M.A.E. (mind altering effects)
+Bonus Skill Damage or Effect
+Bonus Striking Ranged (Concentration could fall under will, thus increasing accuracy)
+Bonus Damage Ranged
+Critical Chance (any attack)

Holy crap dude your random MP regen suggestion gave me a good idea.

What if we do have Ability Points regenerate during fights?

Let me back up-- AP (Ability Points) would be our streamlined points for all characters and stunts. Spells would cost AP, "techniques" or "exploits" would cost AP, prayers would cost AP, etc.

A lot of people don't like the monotony of combat in many RPGs. So... we give characters a relatively small amount of AP, say 6. They regen an average of 1 AP per round. Then we make abilities expensive. Some cheapy ones will only cost 1 AP, but then we make the "big guns" cost upward of 5-6 AP. That way, you pull out a big gun, then BLAMMO, you have to wait a few rounds before you can even use your medium guns.

Then, we could balance our abilities around this system, the way 4e balanced their abilities around the at-will/encounter/daily system. It would be a totally different approach, and it would make fights more interesting because there's more variety: small power, BIG POWER, basic attack, small power, small power, small power, small power, medium power, small power, small power, small power, small power, small power, BIG POWER, etc.

Would this system work? Or would people end up hoarding their points for their big powers?

even if you did horde up your points you still have a cap.